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Communing on Grace Messages and Responses on the Subject of Grace From Heather: I took my Twelve Pages of Wil and sat by the pool today for about 3 hours (getting my very white self burned in the process), armed with Bible, dictionary, highlighter pen, ink pen, and spiral notebook. I have more pondering to do, more rereading to do, but I'm sending along my thoughts thus far! The first section you sent, "Grace", which seemed to be sort of an introduction of sorts, is really well-written. I highlighted parts of it just because I liked 'em. My favorite passage therein is that whole paragraph about "life is... for the perfecting of our souls". That's perfectly stated and true. When I was reading all your references, I stumbled on the revelation of Romans 9 and 10, which you later referred me back to (but I'd already highlighted and marked it up from the first reading!). Grace comes from faith, not performance. Is that liberating! It's amazing to me that I knew that already, but this time it kicked me in the gut and I really understood it. Grace is absolutely free, and that's what I am when I receive it. It's fascinating that God allows us to be simple and faltering and even doubtful in order to undeniably prove His mercy (Romans 11:32). By your Romans 3:22 reference, you've stated: "All have sinned, but freely receive His grace". The verse, in fact, says that He freely receives us. I agree with you that, once we do accept grace, we receive it without working for it or cashing in Jesus Points for it. But I think the important message in this particular verse is that He opens Himself to us in spite of ourselves, which also ties in with the Jeremiah 51:5 reference about God not forsaking Israel, even in light of all her evil. I am intrigued by the cause/effect thing happening in I Peter 1:5. It says that God always planned to save us, and if we believe He can, then He will. Of course, you and I know that the proverbial price has already been paid, the work is done. But in order for salvation to become real and alive in us, we have to first believe in it. I hadn't realized before exactly how much of this all pivots on faith, I mean the very existence of His power in our lives comes and goes based on whether our Faith Switch is in the On or Off position. The only limits in all of creation and beyond that exist for God, then, are the limits our doubts put on Him. Thomas could only believe as far as his physical eyes could see, but if Jesus is to us what our faith eyes see, then He truly becomes unimaginably limitless and powerful and capable and magnificent. He is what we allow Him to be. I have a couple of questions on your references; please enlighten me on these areas. First, Matthew 8:11, you say "God will save all"; that's the verse that says "suffer the little children to come unto Me", etc. And then I Corinthians 2:8,9, you say "by grace, not by works". The verse says that "eyes have not seen" and so forth, all that God has planned for us. I'm densely missing your point with these two references, not seeing what you've seen in them. Care to elaborate? ******
In a message dated 9/5/98 1:08:11 AM, HRS102975 writes: <<I have a couple of questions on your references; please enlighten me on these areas. First, Matthew 8:11, you say "God will save all"; that's the verse that says "suffer the little children to come unto Me", etc. And then I Corinthians 2:8,9, you say "by grace, not by works". The verse says that "eyes have not seen" and so forth, all that God has planned for us. I'm densely missing your point with these two references, not seeing what you've seen in them. Care to elaborate?>> Actually the suffer little children isn't Matt 8:11; that one is Matt 19:13 but it's covered more extensively in Lue 18:15-17. The best ideas come by accident and this is a case in point. In looking at it I thought about todays 6 to 9 year old children and pictured Jesus using THEM as an example. I decided to look up the word referenced in my Greek key Word Bible. It's "brephon" and referes to a new born infant. The implication is "as straight from the womb. Hmmmm. How is a newborn? A blan set of neurons waiting to begin forming cynapses at a record pace. This doesn't seem to be talking about the innocense of youth so much as the state of coming to God with a completely blank slate -- no preconceived ideas because what Jesus has to teach us is so radically different from what we've assumed, that ANYTHING we believe is going to get in the way of understanding what He's teaching. Look at Rev. 3:14-17. This is AFTER God has spoken to the Philadelphia (brotherly love) church an is now taling to the Laodicean (comfort zone) church. He accuses them of being rich and in need of nothing but points out they are poor and naed and miserable, instead. My idea is that this refers to them thining they have all the understanding necessary and don't need to learn anything else. Go ahead to verse 20 -- Jesus is standing outside their door knocking to be let into their lives. All this falls in rather well to what we have been doing -- putting asside what we have always assumed and really listening to Jesus. As far as your questions on those other two scriptures, Matt 8:11 deals with the superior faith of the Centurion and my God will accept all statement refers to the fact that God will be accessable to the Gentiles -- at a time when the word seemed only for the Jews. In 1Cor 2:8-9, I'm including understanding as a work or a gift of grace. God gives us the understanding; we don't arrive at it on our own. That even begs another question: Is faith a work if we provide it or is faith also a GIFT of God. He says that he has closed the eyes of Israel until the fulness of the Gentiles have believed. It seems we don't provide ANYTHING on our own -- it ALL comes as a gift of God. Further evidense that all that happens in this life is just for the edifying of our souls. More later, Wil ********* I Corinthians 8... our individual wisdom can in fact be destructive to those lacking it, by causing confusion or personal compromise on their part. Tough to swallow, but clearly true. Dang. I don't think I like that verse, especially not when you tie it with Galatians 5:13, which tells us that our freedom is not an excuse or crutch, but instead is a state of responsibility toward others... that's heavy. Freedom is, then, a great burden. The freedom of understanding is the acceptance of responsibility on our part for those with less understanding. No wonder Solomon seems so sad (ignorance really is bliss!). 2 Corinthians 12:9: His grace is sufficient. Paul says here that he embraces his own weakness because God reveals His strength through it. Our weakness and humanity then becomes something of a coccoon from which God emerges this incredible butterfly full of color and light. The weakness, or the coccoon, is a necessary part of the evolution, revolution, and revelation. OK, Part II, "The Existentialism of Grace". I think I'll do that in a second e-mail. More to come, like Johnny Carson... ~Heather What a word that is to type, "existentialism". I looked up the word "image": an outward impression of character; a personification. Image is external behavior revealing internal truths. That reminds me that we are created in God's image, not to "look like Him" (duh), but to behave ~ to BE ~ such that His true character is known. I'd like to know the actual Greek or Hebrew definitions for ousia and prosopon. Our definition of essence is: the intrinsic or indispensable qualities or properties that identify. And expression is defined as: communication, a symbol or indication, a formula, manner, or conveyance. OK, got it. I'm just wondering if the definitions you've got there are heavier or more explicit or just different. ******
In a message dated 9/5/98 1:29:32 AM, HRS102975 writes: <<'d like to know the actual Greek or Hebrew definitions for ousia and prosopon. Our definition of essence is: the intrinsic or indispensable qualities or properties that identify. And expression is defined as: communication, a symbol or indication, a formula, manner, or conveyance. OK, got it. I'm just wondering if the definitions you've got there are heavier or more explicit or just different.>> The best is for prosopon : The most accurate rendition is "as the expression on one's face as a representation of one's state of mind." I think that is just perfect -- better for description of god's image than hypostasis, which is how God manifests Himself to us. That would be "Father Son Holy Spirit." Prosopon gives us further opportunities for expression than just those three.
In a message dated 9/5/98 1:29:32 AM, HRS102975 writes: <<I'd like to know the actual Greek or Hebrew definitions for ousia and prosopon. Our definition of essence is: the intrinsic or indispensable qualities or properties that identify. And expression is defined as: communication, a symbol or indication, a formula, manner, or conveyance. OK, got it. I'm just wondering if the definitions you've got there are heavier or more explicit or just different.>> Heather as best as I can tell ousia is the unnowableness of god -- that which is unavailable to our carnal perspective and can only be interprested by studying the hypostasis and prosopon which god reveals to us. This reverts bac to what we have been talking about regarding becomeing Jesus in thought and action -- why Jesus said, "If you have seen me you have seen the Father and relates to the differences between gonsos and epignosos. More later Wil ****** I like your God as three "save as" representations analogy. I understand it in terms of the sun. The sun is heat, light, and energy. All three of these make up the sun, but alone, heat is not the sun, heat is just heat. Jesus is not the beginning and end of God, but merely a third of the entire being of God. God, then, is equal to the sum of His parts. I didn't express that very well. Will try again later. Aha! "...we are all predestined to be saved because we already are. We just don't all realize it". This is the revelation/conviction ~ the awareness and acceptance of our sinfulness and His holiness, of all that we lack and His absolution. Bang. Seems so simple. You mention multiple resurrections. I have always believed that referred to the spiritual death (to sin) and resurrection (to Christ), and then the physical death (kicking the bucket) and resurrection (at the time of Rapture when we're joined together with Him). Two resurrections. Then there's His resurrection, that's three. Am I missing any? I like the idea of life as a virtual reality exercise. This isn't the real thing. I heard a song that says "Life is a dream and Heaven's reality". Hmm. More on this later, I'm sure. ~Heather I love this section. Well, hey, it's all wonderful so far, but I really love this part. Got me thinking again about how cliquish religion is. God gave everyone a fair shot at knowing and understanding Him, not just one group or sect. Since we've all sinned, I don't know why we insist on thinking we've got a head start toward Heaven, a leg up on everyone else. And that's what's cool about God... no matter what time you start running in the race, you're on the same path as the runners before you, and you don't just catch up with them... on good days you pass them by. But they can catch up to you, too. It's cool. No one has the monopoly on God. It's open day at the marketplace for all of us. You say that Peter knew when he woke, that his dream was about grafting the Gentiles into the vine, so to speak. I read there that he was confused by his dream when he woke up, and I was so eager to get back to what you wrote, that I didn't read on far enough to find his moment of revelation. Of course, further on in the book he understands what it meant, but it seems to me he had to do a little pondering on it before it came to him fully. "Don't eat by them, they're Porkers"??? My goodness. I don't have a lot to say on this portion, not yet. I want to read Romans 9:30 - 10:4 again, and 11:1-36. I was reading out of the Contemporary English Version, and want to read it again in the King James. For now, these are my rough and in some cases, already stated, thoughts. Grace cannot be earned ~ the only thing we do that saves us is believe. And because we believe and receive grace, everything we could think to do or not do is covered or completed in His eyes. Nevertheless, we strive to do good, not to earn mercy, but to share it. No one can repay God's goodness, only give it away to others. So if a serial killer calls out to God on his deathbed for salvation and believes he's received it, he's as saved as I am, despite my life of living "this life" and his living "that life". Our goodness may earn us those extra crowns and trophies, but goodness doesn't do anything at all to save us. Interesting: faith without works is dead, but works without faith are equally dead. Thank you for slurping me into this most fascinating journey. I look forward to more, soon. Always grateful for the revelations. ~Heather, Sunburned Variety
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